Saturday, March 31, 2012

Civil Rights and Gay Rights March Together in the life of Bayard Rustin


"The only weapon we have is our bodies...and we need to put them in places so that wheels don't turn."...Bayard Rustin

There are some people in life who have helped me change how I think about being a gay person. Growing up as I did, in a home in which it was made crystal clear to me how wrong my parents, the church, and society as a whole looked at LGBT life as something sick and to be ashamed of. As a part of my journey to self acceptance, those messages had to be undone and one of the ways that was accomplished has been in the examples of great LGBT people who by their examples have rocked the way I thought about myself...and the world. One such person is Bayard Rustin.

I had known of Bayard...that he was an adviser to Martin Luther King Junior, an outspoken activist and organizer,...and gay. That alone was a revelation to me. Most people think of Martin Luther King Jr. as one of the great leaders of our time for his work in helping drive forward the civil rights movement. It had hit me like a bomb then, to discover that standing by his side was a gay man...one who not only worked along side him, but advised him. The questions I had were endless. How out was Rustin to MLK and the rest of the leaders of the movement? What was his life like? Did he have relationships or was his a life marked with solitude? and finally....why had I never heard this before?

Again, my ideas about who we are as gay men and women had been changed and I needed to know more. Fortunately, because it was recently the anniversary of Rustin's 100th birthday there has been some talk about him and his life which led me to a documentary about his life....Brother Outsider, The Life Of Bayard Rustin. What I have learned about him not only answered all those questions I had and made me feel a personal connection to events that happened before my birth...they showed me and a singular individual, who was amazing all in his own right
Too often in history the fact that and individual was gay is completely sanitized from the record. That Rustin's contribution to civil rights as a gay person is not widely known by the average person is no surprise at all. However, I had come to think of that time as one in which the nation took a great stride forward to honor it's promise to all Americans. The names associated with the Civil Rights movement...like Martin Luther King Jr., and Rosa Parks have become  synonymous with strength, faith, perseverance, and courage in the face of overwhelming resistance. To know that a gay man stood at the heart of the storm with people such as them made me feel a connection to those times and events...and a tiny surge of pride. "See"...I want to say to everyone who ever told me that being gay was a road to misery..."we are here too."


Rustin was an extraordinary individual. He was raised by his Quaker grandmother who instilled in him the need to act in a peaceful way to right injustice. Bayard was fighting for the civil equality of blacks and practicing non-violent protest long before a larger, organised movement existed. He campaigned against Jim Crow laws, helped organize the first March on Washington in protest over segregation in the armed forces, and he was arrested for sitting in the front of the bus long before Rosa Parks, he worked to strengthen labor unions, journeyed to California to protest the treatment of Japanese Americans who had been placed in internment camps, he worked to end discrimination for Soviet Jews, and gave blood in impoverished villages in Vietnam.  He also journeyed to India to learn about how to implement Ghandian non-violent civil disobedience which he then used in civil rights demonstrations back home. He helped organize the "Freedom rides" and later on became the chief organizer of the now famous March on Washington. These are just a few of his accomplishments. Bayard had a very strong sense o social responsibility and believed that the only way to affect change was by the use of action and our physical bodies...the quote at the top of the post attests. His experience in civil disobedience and as an organizer in mass demonstrations made him a sought after adviser and during the Montgomery bus boycotts, would eventually lead him to his 3work with Martin Luther King

That Bayard Rustin was an epic figure in the civil rights movement is not hard to uncover. His life as a gay man though is seldom talked about and I don't think Bayard ever drew any distinctions between the work he did to advance black civil rights or the work he did for gay rights.  Though there has been a point of contention between those who resent the LGBT community for likening the gay rights movement to the civil rights movement....this is a sometimes heated conversation that inequality groups like NOM sought to exploit with their "divide and conquer" strategy. However...to me, men like Bayard Rustin, who stand at the intersection of race and sexual identity, show us how artificial our divisions of the two really are. Are they exactly the same...no. But, would Bayard have had to chose between which part of himself to fight for?...the black part or the gay part? I believe that he saw all struggles for equality as part of one fight.

The interesting thing about Bayard Rustin is that he is one of those extraordinary individuals who have a strong inner core of confidence that can deflect even the worst of condemnations. Bayard was living as an out gay man in the 40's and 50's when would seem that being black and gay would be a tough hand to be dealt. Yet Rustin was having his first sexual experiences with boys in high school for which he claims never to have experienced any guilt. This same matter-of-fact attitude toward being gay was a hallmark of Rustin's personality that often vexed his later fellow activists, including his mentor pastor A.J. Muste....not that, that ever bothered or stopped Rustin from being exactly who he was. That is until an arrest in 1953 for "homosexual activity" with two other men in a parked car led to him pleading guilty to "sex perversion" and a 60 day jail sentence. 

The conviction was hard on Bayard and shook him up. It also led to many of his former friends and allies who had stood by him in the early work for equal civil rights distancing themselves from him. For the first time, Bayard had come to see that his fearlessness about his own sexuality could have a negative impact on fighting for the civil rights of the black community. Later on this conviction would come back to haunt him time and again as his opponents would seek to use this conviction and his former membership in the communist party in the early 40's as a way to paint him as a deviant and a pervert and thus discredit his voice within the civil rights movement. By the time that Bayard came to hear of Martin Luther King...he already had decades of protest organisation experience under his belt for which his advice was much sought after. In his attempts to help MLK, his arrest record again resurfaced and King, rather then hurt his cause...distanced himself from Rustin. It began to be clear to Rustin that if he was to be of service to the black civil rights movement...his sexuality would have to become invisible or it would always be a liability. After journeying to Algeria to protest nuclear bomb testing by France. He would later return to America and be reunited with Martin Luther King and go to become the principle organizer behind the now historic March on Washington in which King gave his "I Have A Dream" speech that changed the world.

(Bayard and his partner Walter Naegle)

And so...In a sense, I do think Bayard Rustin had to chose which part of himself to defend. In the choice between fighting for civil rights for the larger black community and continuing to stay true living honestly as a gay man....helping the larger community had won. In the end, Bayard would not turn to activism for the gay community until 1977 and in 1986, gave this quote in testimony for a New York State gay rights bill:

Today, blacks are no longer the litmus paper or the barometer of social change. Blacks are in every segment of society and there are laws that help to protect them from racial discrimination. The new "niggers" are gays. . . . It is in this sense that gay people are the new barometer for social change. . . . The question of social change should be framed with the most vulnerable group in mind: gay people.

This was the quote that led me to write this piece. It was a strong statement made by a man who would know what it was like to be called that word. Sadly, I can't agree with Bayard's account that the civil rights movement has moved on the next group...I just don't think that work is done. As an example of why we can look to the events surrounding the death of Trayvon Martin. We have not yet reached a world where color does not matter. Granted...Bayard made this comment in 1986. It was a very different climate for gay people. What had begun as fighting for rights in the 70's had turned into a fight for life against the AIDS epidemic and a world that was content to blame it on the gays. Bayard had spent his whole life fighting for civil rights and the rights of others...perhaps it was just his time to start fighting for the part he had let become invisible so long ago....his gayness.

But regardless of how one feels about Bayard's comment above Watching his life unfold and seeing the work that he did to make these epic moments civil rights history happen...I admired Bayard for his early confidence in himself and his sexuality at a time when it was patently dangerous to be gay. Bayard took the beatings and never stopped working for the good of his community and the good of others...that takes a kind of character and courage that I admire. Hell...when I came out I wish I had half the self assurance that he had. And to know that LGBT people really are present in every moment of history doing amazing things should help anyone coming to grips with themselves a reason to hold their head up a little higher. Bayard Rustin passed away in 1987....I wish I had the opportunity to meet him while he was here and I wonder what he would think of the state of gay rights now....are we doing enough?

Bayard Rustin's story is a black story...it is a gay story too...must most importantly it is the story of an uncommon man who shone a very bright light for us all. I highly recommend renting Brother Outsider and taking a moment to learn about the life of this remarkable man.

Until next time dear readers.....


48 comments:

  1. actually when i shared your original post about 'brother outsider' on fb i said 'yup....the gays were here too' i have not seen 'B.O.' but it is on my list and had languished for other issues.

    ReplyDelete
  2. Before the second picture I think you meant to spell King and not Sing. Just thought you would like to know.

    ReplyDelete
  3. I stand corrected...litterally

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. did you go to college and by that I mean real college not your local college lol

      Delete
  4. I think way more blacks would be on our side of our own civil rights struggle if they understood our underlying orientation is as biologically determined as their skin color. They know how painful discrimination is and therefore are in a unique position to be empathetic with us.

    BTW Bryan, in your video about talking to Selena more candidly about her mother, it was very sweet of you to refer to us as being part of your family too. We feel the same way back.

    ReplyDelete
  5. Jay did you right this or copy and paste it. It seems a bit out of your ummm intelligence level, I mean some parts I can just tell you probably wrote others ummm yea not so really.....you were a cop
    they dont think so much really lol heres an oxy moron for you boy Military, Intelligence bahahahaah

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. WTF? Jay, could this be the same Anonymous character from the Foster Diaries thread you called out for dumping on Bryan for no good reason?

      Anyway, whoever you are, this blog is Bryan's in case you didn't already know.

      Delete
    2. This blog is Bryan's blog and both him and Jay are extremely intelligent people, why also happen to be very articulate!! Not only that they also have the balls to put not only their face on their work, they also have the balls to put their name on it too. Unlike your scared little ass, you hide behind the anonymity of a computer screen. How about you man up and let the world know who you are.

      Delete
    3. Well, Hi world My name is Ross Conrad, I live in Va, I was born on Spet.18.1990, Im a proud Mormon and a single father,I have one little girl her name is Kennedy,she a she got a twin brother his name John Henry their a year old, they like playing and jumping they are the cutet kids you wil ever meet..umm what else ummmmm I'm an realtor , I sell tree, lol naw I got kids I don't do that and never will...so know the whole world knows about Ross Conrad

      Delete
    4. cutest* and she has*

      Delete
    5. *shes
      got now*

      Delete
  6. I read an article about Naegle some time ago. I don't remember where but it was about him going home to tell his folks that he was gay. And not only that but he was in love with a black man. And not only that but black man was old enough to be his father.

    Quite a lot for parents to take in at one time!

    ReplyDelete
  7. Thank you for sharing this with us, I really am not that up to speed on the civil rights movement it was not something that was highly covered particularly in depth school (the internment of Japanese during WWII was covered in more depth)

    I will have to try to find time to watch this documentary. it was very interesting to read about the way that the movements have intersected in the past, and to see the influence that the civil rights movement has in the gay rights movement today.

    PS keep up the great blogging, you have such a great hart and head on your shoulders and it shows threw in your writing, which is also so very inspirational.

    ReplyDelete
  8. Thanks everybody. I don't pay any attention to negative comments under anonymous names as it's clear they don't have the courage to own their own comments. Whatever you may think about my writing ability, I hope that somebody took the time to learn about Bayard as he was an amazing person for a whole lot of reasons.
    Bry

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. they should of shot his as instead of Dr.King...just saying lol
      #freedom of speech

      Delete
  9. Bryan,

    I apologize in advance of how drastically off-topic I’m about to go, but our Anonymous guest has revealed his identity and, in speaking directly to him here, I have a unique opportunity to do some good here. I hope after reading what follows that you agree….

    Ross C.,

    If you’re still here, both from your comments and your self-identification as a proud Mormon, I can only assume that you oppose such things as marriage equality and are afraid of what your kids might get exposed to and what impact that might have on their sexual development. I would assume you operate under the belief that sexual orientation is either learned or chosen, just like we choose flavors of ice cream at Baskin Robbins. Even if you harbor that belief, you still might have been exposed to overwhelming anecdotal evidence that the vast majority of gay men report no or very little choice in their orientation. Well now I’m going to present you with a video containing an excerpt of a 2008 National Geographic documentary of the science behind sexual orientation. Go to www.youtube.com/outlatebutgreat, then click the “Videos” tab, then in the video search box, do a search for “epigenetics.” Do that and you will get the correct video. While scientists have not found a single “gay” gene yet, they feel they HAVE found the mechanism in fetal development that determines sexual orientation. It involves a structure in the brain called the hypothalamus and you will need to watch the video, and maybe even twice, to learn what hormonally has to happen to the hypothalamus in utero for the child to be heterosexual. In turn, you will learn of at least two sources of interference in utero which results in the hypothalamus not getting the hormonal “juice” it customarily otherwise would have received and the result is that particular child WILL be gay.

    For a hetero such as yourself, and one who presumably desperately wants his children to turn out straight themselves, the implications of this video give you the best possible news imaginable. Purely by the force of biology, the odds are overwhelmingly in your favor that your children will turn out heterosexual. Because their straight orientation will be every bit as biologically determined as is the orientation of someone who’s gay, that means you needn’t worry about life experiences or exposures to so-called dangerous ideas “turning” your kids gay. Being an overly-harsh or emotionally aloof father can’t switch a son who’s biologically wired to be straight. Nor can an oppressive, smothering, overprotective mother. Nor can hanging out with the “wrong” friends. Nor can playing with the “wrong” toys. Nor can exposure to “objectionable lessons” at school. Nor can hearing that gay people actually exist or that something called gay marriage exists. None of that stuff matters, nor can it because your children’s biological wiring will trump all.

    So all this worry you presumably have will be proven to have been for nothing. And should either of your children come up on the short side of those statistical odds and turn out gay, you can take comfort in that you did absolutely nothing wrong as a parent to cause this. If one turns out to be gay, it was biologically pre-determined. No one, absent some psychosis, would make a choice or a decision to be something that exposes them to living a more difficult life, full of unfairness, inequality, discrimination, oppression, etc. So please give any such gay child your love, support and understanding rather than your judgment. I’m confident you would do this anyway because, after seeing the video, you will know better because your eyes will have been opened and you can’t un-ring a bell, can you?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Dave,

      Your letter is well written but you are missing one key component. I have my suspicions about "straight" people that go onto gay blogs and make nasty comments. Some of the most homophobic people out there are closeted gay people who are dealing with their own internal homophobia. This fellow is a "proud Mormon." I am sure he has been taught his whole life that homosexuality is evil from the pulpit. These people are so jealous of other people like the Leffews who are out of the closet and who have found happiness. Just sayin!!

      Delete
    2. My kid won't be gay, they just won't, I mean like it just won't happen.period It just won't happen. And if my kids happened to basically be "mutated", ummmm I'd probably ummmm I don't really know what I would do, probably cry for like the rest of my life ..probably. Naw I wouldn't care....actually I would but its their life,I'm their to guide them and then its up to them to do what they want to do. what can I do, their still my kids I can't just fucking ditch them you know ,it wouldn't feel right, I'd still love them like I always do lol.Would I want my kids to be str8 yes every parent wants that, which is pretty true...and Jim I'm not jealous of them....lol I got my own 2 leveled condo, it got s fucking hot tub bulit in on the deck lol, its pretty fucking sick lol.. I got a nice 2011 mercade benz..thanks dad lol.. I'm doing pretty good for myself right now. pretty happy were I am at this point..I'm not a closeted gay you stupid hoe don't even fucking call me that, Im to good looking to be a fag, they gayest thing I probably do is listen to Adele really, I own more clothing and shoes then the average guy but im not gay fuck no lol naw man, I like looking good for the girls. Ight go more shopping then they do.. I don't roll like that I dont take things up in my ass.. Pussy , I very much enjoy. Jim also don't assume shit about me ever.. bitch next time you call me gay oh lord the holy ghost is gonna have to keep my mouth closed cause the things I would say boy, try me again man, just do it. I'm not gonna fight you, but oh lord...if you wnat to have shit stuck up in your ass... fine cool whatever, I dont so don't assume I'm some closeted bitch

      Delete
    3. I'm a good lil boy my pastor say don't use fighting use your words.
      Me I don't even like fighting..MY face is to pretty to get damaged..you have to protect things you are giving you know

      Delete
    4. Ross The Mormon ConradApril 2, 2012 at 7:25 PM

      I just want to say I like how you guys are making statements ,assuming shit about me right off that bat cause I’m Mormon, I don’t assume shit about you being gay. I didn’t even say anything about being gay, but the whole thing was turned into that…I’m telling you if you keep doing that.. nobody going to like gay people…its annoying and if someone says something mean to you, don’t be like you hate gay people….its just fucking annoying
      Dave,
      Okay you assumed I oppose such things as marriage equality …one don’t assume shit about me. Just cause I’m Mormon doesn’t mean I can’t make my own fucking choice. I believe in equality for all kinds of people: gay, straight, black, even if it does contradict with my personal beliefs. Everyone at my church thinks I’m gay or something, just cause when were at church talking about gay marriage, I’m always the one whose like why do we even care…like don’t we have our own lives, we need to worry about our self and put effort into our own lives instead of others, I’m always like if you’re going to complain about Obama Care every single Sunday about how it’s unconstitutional, cause it’s the government telling the people what to do…then you’re a hypocrite…and we all know God doesn’t likehypocrites. . Then everyone starts talking shit about me, assuming this and that. I’ve cursed out many people, saying I can’t raise my kids all by my fucking self, that I had kids to young, who you worried about, I can do it all by myself I don’t need nobody. That’s why I don’t like going to church much, all you do is judge, I thought only God could do that... umhmm practice what you preach. I’m not really you know up for the whole being gay thing, I don’t see how you don’t like the other sex , but I’m not going to scream in your ear about it.. I don’t give a fuck at all. Its a free country so go ahead date your same sex, you’re a citizen and you got rights(14th). I’m not one of those other ignorant, old- fashioned Mormons , that never seem to change no matter what fucking century were are in. Okay I don’t give a fuck about what your sexual preference are.
      Dave:” For a hetero like yourself….”
      One you guys get mad when someone says homo, if I said “you homo what’s up” which is basically in the same content you used hetero, I’d be bitched at.
      Why do you feel the need to share this with me.. what you think I can’t raise my kids, and that I’ll be mad at them if they were gay…oh hell no, you think just cause I’m Mormon, I don’t take well with adversity…what you trying to say man.. are you making statements, assuming…..what you think I’m not an understanding man….what you think I’m going to force my kids to be str8, I know my kids are going to str8……….so what you saying man huh?
      PEACE OUT!
      ps: I wasn't taught that being gay was a sin, well kinda, but my dad always says you gotta let people live their own lives, don't get involed with it.
      And I don't because I don't give a fuck about what the fuck you wanna do

      Delete
    5. QUESTION:Bryan do you take, or does Jay take it, or do you switch off, just wondering..........do you guys rim,give bj, or jack off for each other or other types of oral sex like rubbing your **** together, if so does Bryan do it or Jay or a switch off thing. Do you do dry humping,scat

      Delete
    6. Jamie, are you asking that because you want to join in? No? Then why do you care what they do in the privacy of their bedroom? Would you want us to ask you what you do in bed? Hmm?

      Delete
  10. Ross C,

    Wow! I guess I really offended you, didn’t I? But wading through your blue streak, I discovered something quite unexpected and it’s actually a very pleasant surprise. In all actuality, you already are fairly enlightened and you now sound like you are more in agreement with our side than you are opposed. That’s wonderful! I think your problem at the moment is with me personally. You feel slighted by me in a number of ways, the principle ones being these:
    1. At one point, I addressed you as “hetero;”
    2. I either in fact did or appeared to make assumptions of your views solely based on your religion; and
    3. To you, at least, it appeared I was making unfounded assumptions as to your parenting style or competency.

    I’d like to respond to these individually. You are correct that we find it offensive when straights address us as “homos.” But what I learned from you today is that there’s a strong likelihood that a straight individual, when being addressed by someone he or she knows to be gay, will feel offended being called “hetero” in the same way as we dislike being called “homos.” I didn’t know this before. But I do now. I’m sorry. I won’t make this mistake again.

    Next, you felt I made unwarranted assumptions of your views soley on the basis of your religion. In reality, I saw your religion as just one clue. But what I really did was put the religion part together with another key piece of evidence: your dumping of insults on Jay and Bryan when they have done absolutely nothing to you. Those insults actually carried the greater weight with me. Someone who really is a hardcore opponent of gay rights is one I would expect to possibly lurk on this board and then verbally attack Jay and Bryan. When you did that yourself, I don’t know how I could have avoided then assuming you were a raving right winger together with the customary homophobic views, even when it turns out now that you’re not at all.

    Finally my reference to parenting style, specifically the bit about being an overly-harsh or emotionally aloof father. My reference there was merely reciting a widely known “old wives’ tale” as to things erroneously believed to cause a son to become gay. The theory behind this is that supposedly a father’s relationship with his son is critical to the healthy sexual development of that child and, if that boy is subjected to that kind of parenting style, he will feel a void in his life for male affection and in later years that feeling of loss will become sexualized resulting in his becoming gay. I, in fact, was making no reference to you personally there at all and I certainly had no intention whatsoever to assume anything about how you raise your kids because I have no information on the subject to go on. You may, in fact, be super loving toward your kids and it’s entirely possible in that event that we all should be taking parenting lessons from you. That could well be for all I know. My point of listing parenting styles of either parent, along with other things kids might get exposed to, is to demonstrate that these things are irrelevant in determining sexuality because the child’s biology has already determined that all by itself.

    I hope you’re not still angry with me. After all, you got an apology out of me for one your grievances, and pretty good clarifications on the others.

    ReplyDelete
  11. @Jim

    Yes, I am well aware that there are self-hating closet cases out there who do exactly what you describe. But Ross gave a fairly detailed description of himself, even admitting he was a single father—not that there’s anything wrong with that—and even his children’s names. These are the kinds of admissions that to me smack of truthfulness so, in this case, I’m willing to accept him at his word.

    ReplyDelete
  12. I'm in for a lil 3some lol
    You want to know what I do in bed…. Me and my boyfriend we start just by laying on each other he’s laying on me , then he turns to face me , he has his hand in my pants while I got my hands slightly in his pant( in his butt area ), and were just making out. After a while we bought start to get hard, so we take off our clothes for each other then I sit down as he goes to kneel down and start to give me some good ass head , while he jacks himself off. Then we switch and I give him some head, pinch his nipples, kiss his chest slowly, gradually u to his lips I sit on his dick but his dick isn’t in my butt and we make out some more. Then later we sit up and jack off for each other while kissing.. then where ever we decided to have sex we go to that place. So I carry him up to my room drop him on the bed kiss him ass I’m on top of him then I take full control. I wrap his legs around my body and insert my…… into his butt as were still kissing and then I lay down and he rides on top of my……then we sit there jacking each other till the …. comes out. Then we hop in the shower with each other and wipe it all clean that’s what I do……..what do you do boyyyy!

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Wow, what an off-topic nightmare this thread has become. I suppose I bear some of the blame for this, but I never forsaw it getting quite this free-form. You might have misinterpreted Tim's comment because he definitely wasn't asking you to spell out what you do and probably was hoping that you wouldn't. If you saw Episode 9 of Ask A Gay Family on the depfox channel, you would know that their relationship is closed and you shouldn't expect to be invited in and they definitely will NOT appreciate your question.

      Delete
    2. *Facpalm* I deeply apologize to you Bryan, please forgive me. As Dave has said, that is not what i meant. I thought i was perfectly clear; their relationship is none of your business.

      Delete
    3. Dave
      I wasn't offended by you calling me a "hetero", I mean I just don't give fuck lol , I don't care about alot of things actually, but anyways I'm just saying I wouldn't use a word or a pharse that is or is similar to a word or pharse that offends you.. I mean thats how you gain alot of haters lol..
      Jamie- oh my gosh...really...really. I mean..really. I'm kinda scared now..I think I'm going to have to blow my eyes out of my head like..just wow..was that really necessary at all. Like.. come on just..just unnecessary..will bye now I have to go throw up

      Delete
    4. " but anyways I'm just saying I wouldn't use a word or a pharse that is or is similar to a word or pharse that offends you.. I mean thats how you gain alot of haters lol"

      Well, that's what I learned from you. Most times I type "hetero" is because I'm lazy about always typing out the entire word. I normally don't use it as an epithet anyway and wasn't using it that way although I can now see how conceivably it could feel that way. To someone's face, if it ever came up, I would more likely say "straight" more than anything else. Don't think it would occur to me to call them "hetero" in that situation. I don't think I'd say "heterosexual" to their face either because it feels too clinical to me. I don't particularly like "homosexual" as a term either for the same reason. If we have to use labels at all, "gay" is most comfortable for me.

      I take it then that we are now at peace and can get along now....

      Delete
    5. BTW did you finish the vomiting you said you needed to do? There's a spot of up-chuck on your lower lip righthand side that you need to wipe off. :-D :-D

      Yes, I have a sense of humor....

      Delete
    6. Here's what we do: I make a bag of REALLY buttery and cheesy popcorn in the microwave. We take it into the family room and make sure there is a fire in the fireplace and perhaps open a bottle of wine and then we watch an episode of "Star Wars" that we both have probably seen a hundred times..and then we go to bed.. You should try it..it is ORGASMIC! :)

      Delete
  13. Oh gosh I thought I got all of it…..I feel so embarrassed now

    ReplyDelete
  14. looks like Bryan is gonna have to do some heavy moderating on his blog from now on.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. ^ I have a friend named Michael Hardy, he plays the trumpet..... hardin, hardy

      Delete
    2. I agree it got unusually off-topic this time, but it had much better conversational flow, which makes feel more like talking to someone in the flesh. So what ultimately is better? Strictly on-topic comments throughout with a stiffer flow or something that starts on topic but can morph into anything as it gets more naturally conversational feeling? I guess it's in the eye of the beholder. I personally like it more natural and conversational feeling, but we did have some unusually volatile parts this time.

      Delete
  15. Ross shutup, don't pretend like you don't want some of this....lol what your afriad of a little gay... are your "magic underwears" on alil to tight there called pjs okay not underwears dude...now go fuck your fifty WIVES..oh wait your single you can't even get one dude that just sad and your girl left you with the kids man thats fucked up..like foreal..want to you go swape her for a new one... man hey man how bout you get some gold plates and put them in a hat tell me what you saw and then will put it in the BOOK OF MORONS yeah your a mormon take out the extra m and thats who founde you religion.......ITS FAKE NOW WILL YOU UNDERSTAND THAT........yea these are magic plates...stfu your religion is a joke a big fat lie..go ride on your bike with your black pants and white shirt... I wanna throw up on you....got go puke...hey do you marry your baby girls or give them to someone else lol..gotta go puke in a hat then write a book...lol...you got burned and roasted lol..see you in ....

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Jamie,

      PLEASE don’t do this. I spent a lot of time and work trying to get Ross not to be angry anymore and get him back to calm and maybe even friendly. We don’t need another flame war here. When he said he needed to throw up, he could have been joking, at least partially. Remember, I made a joke to him about the vomiting thing—his “clean-up” issues--and he responded in kind. That proves he has a sense of humor. Please let this one go this time. To expect someone who’s straight to be captive to a detailed and graphic description of what we might do in private and not feel uncomfortable is simply asking too much. It’s simply too much information for him. Ross supports equality for us and that should be good enough for us. Yes, he’s Mormon, but he definitely does NOT tow the company line and, to his fellow congregationists, and I’m paraphrasing him here, when they rant and rave about gay marriage, his response back is get a life of your own and keep your fucking nose out of other people’s business. Ross is no saint, but he doesn’t deserve this level of abuse.

      Delete
    2. I agree with Dave, you need not be attacking him. I would mirror what Dave has said. Jamie, this does not help with anything by attacking someone.

      Delete
  16. Ross,

    I know you’re mega-angry and you have every right to be. Jamie’s response to you is wildly disproportionate to what you said to him and is uncalled for. The worst thing you could do is try to match him in verbal firepower. I know you’re quite capable, but it won’t make it better. It’ll make it a lot worse. The best thing you can do is ignore him. I’m begging you to hold your tongue. You need to trust me now. We are trying to handle this for you.

    ReplyDelete
  17. Deuteronomy 4:2 “You shall not add to the word which I command you, nor take anything from it.” (it=the bible)...that what the book of mormons is an add-on..whos sinning now...and wait wait did you know about your founder he was a what finish it for me okay 33rd degree....... tell me okay he was a 33rd degree what..lol ummmmm...look in the mirror tell me whos sining

    ReplyDelete
  18. Jamie,

    Enough is enough! You've got to stop this! You've gone way WAY too far.

    ReplyDelete
  19. No comments from Ross, the wicked flee, right lol
    I just wanna say I do like Mormons..well when Byu is playing Alamba, I do..lol, fuck you Saban...hey Ross do you want a Coke...I know you do....Hey Ross, will you every stop being a Mormon...???

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Ross is on eastern time and could be busy with the kids, putting them to bed, etc. It's now 6:50 pm central time. So Jamie, I wouldn't get too confident just yet that you won't hear from him although I still hope he'll take my advice and not engage with you any further. Jamie, you're much toned down compared to before--the only place to go is down from there--but asking him if he's going to stop being a Mormon could still be interpreted as trying to provoke him. You need to chill 100%. Considering what all has happened on this thread, any references to his religion of any kind need to be regarded as radioactive. It's a place you need to stop going, period, or we'll have no peace here.

      Delete
  20. Your opinion on my religion is irrelevant to me; I honestly don’t care to what you or anyone else have to say about it. One thing is just because I’m Mormon don’t assume I practice or will practice polygamy, The LDS church has no association with that practice, we all believe love should be divided and not multiplied. I mean aren’t you the one who wanted have relations with those two men though? I mean I don’t really have anything else to say really so yea……………

    ReplyDelete
  21. Ross,
    I’ve been curious about something for some time but, with all the craziness that’s gone on with this thread, I just didn’t think it was safe to ask. It’s feeling calmer now, so maybe it’s safe to ask you now. Some folks here have suggested you might be gay yourself, which would make your presence here make sense, but you say you’re not and I believe you. Don’t get me wrong, I think and I believe most people here think you should be welcome here too as long as you treat people with kindness. But it seems there has to be something going on that makes you interested in us in the first place. And I assume if you’re here that you’re also watching the Depfox channel. Apart from some rough language here and there, I’m not feeling that you’re much of a hater. Are you a social justice crusader? Or do you have family members, friends or coworkers who have come out to you and maybe being here helps you to understand them better and get a better grasp on what it means to be them? If you don’t mind me asking, what is it that brings you to us in the first place?

    ReplyDelete
  22. After all thats gone on this page, I honestly don't even remember how I got here or even why I'm still here..lol

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Well, I think what happened here was a one-time aberration not likely to happen again. I hope there aren't any lingering hard feelings. I think you and I get along just fine now and I tried to defend you the best I could. Maybe with my new-found negotiating skills I can get a job at the United Nations. :-D

      Delete
  23. ummmm. . . .WOW!!! as an inappropriate troll, not even i would have asked what bryan and jay do specifically-yes i want to know but seriously that's their bizness. there are beautiful pictures of kids smiling in the background...take a moment please! love and hugs to all. i have noticed that there seems to be a tipping point on this stuff, its almost as though this is a right of passage on the internet...sort of and it depends on the topic in question too. i could be wrong im no expert on the interwebz.

    ReplyDelete