Saturday, May 19, 2012

Paul Cameron Admits Gay Attraction...And Why We Should Care


Hello everyone...Earlier this week it was announced that, while being interviewed on the David Pakman radio show, discredited anti-gay researcher Paul Cameron admitted on air to having same-sex attractions from the age of three. For those of you who are not familiar with Cameron or his work, Cameron was a psychologist and sex researcher who built his career by bogus "studies" and research papers vilifying the gay community. In order to create credibility for his assertions, Cameron would often distort and sometimes outright bastardize the work of other credible scientists. This ultimately led to him being expelled from the American Psychological Association and roundly condemned and discredited by the medical and psycholigical communities. However,...not letting a pesky thing like facts stop them...promininent anti-gay orgs continue to use Camerons works to bolster there own viewpoints and to pad their arguments with his false statistics. This mans works are the source documents for groups who right this minute seek to eliminate any protections the gay community might attain.

Therefor...it was with to my chagrin that his anouncement on the Pakman Show didn't garner more attention. I saw it as a big dam hairy deal. We need to be shouting it out as loudly as we did George Allen Rekkers. If your not familiar with Paul Cameron, you should be and I will tell you why...(Video Below the fold)




A short list of the groups that have used Camerons works to make their own anti-gay cases includes a list of names assembled by Box Turtle Bulletin...some of whom you may recognize right away, but what all have in common is the fact that they primary role is to move public opinion away from affirming the worth, dignity, and humanity of the gay community and recharacterize us as dangerous, shadowy, and a threat. Just a very few of the most popular are:

*The Family Research Council... who's figurehead, Tony Perkins is on CNN almost nightly
*The American Family Association
*Americans For Truth.
*Concerned Women For America...a very close NOM affiliate.

Also drawing heavily on Camerons work are reparative therapy organisations of Exodus International and the LDS church run group, Evergreen International. Also on the list is the International Healing Foundation which was founded by Richard "hug the gay away" Cohen...as well as The National Association for Research and Therapy of Homosexuality(Narth)...which you will all remember best for it's founder George Allen Rekkers and the scandal that over his hiring of rentboy to "lift his luggage"....and this is just the short list of those who have drawn on Camerons work.

And just as NARTH scrubbed all mention of Rekkers from the websites in order to distance themselves from him and the damage his scandal caused the ex-gay movement, so also do most of the organisations who use Camerons work in their own tracts, documents, and legal testimony distance themselves from mentioning that Cameron is the source of their information. Being that his work has been utterly discredited any mention that their information was sourced from him would shoot their arguments out the water immediately....especially when Tony Perkins is testifying before Congress or appearing on CNN...again. Or even David Blankenhorn during the Federal Prop 8 trial siting arguments that have their basis in Camerons....arguments which were identified and shredded on the witness stand. But they don't have any other substantive arguments and so they continue to draw on a man who has been expelled from the scientific community.



And while some groups have not directly used Camerons work, they still rely on many of his conclusions and simply restate them in their own words. So when Maggie Gallagher calls homosexuality an "unfortunate lifestyle" is because Cameron attempted to institutionalize the idea that being gay is bad for you health by asserting that gay men only live to an average age of 42. And when Brian Fischer of the AFA or Peter Sprigg of the FRC go on air saying they think that gays should be quarantined they are only echoing the Camerons own words. Cameron is also responsible for supporting through his bogus findings the gay=pedophile myth. He has asserted in several sources, including legal testimony that gays molest young boys to "recruit" them into the gay lifestyle. He also asserted that gays take more from society in resources than we return to it and therefor branded us "parasitic"(BTB). This is also only a short list of his words and findings that I could find in an afternoons googling....the complete list is much more extensive and all of it drawn on the findings of other researchers taken out of context and distorted beyond belief.

So when I saw the news that Cameron had admitted to gay attraction I was floored....not because he's another anti-gay conservative closet case but because his works are being used as the foundation for other groups who we have to go toe to toe with daily....because pamphlets and literature are still being handed out to parents and teens drawing on his conclusions. Those families send their kids to Evergreen and Exodus, those kids sometimes take their own lives because they were only told that their was something wrong with them.  The FRC and cohorts rally the troops with fearful characterizations of us based on Camerons work. While Cameron himself may have become a scientific pariah...his work lives on and continues to harm people to this day. Sadly...he is not as irrelevant as many would like to think he is.  And to those who think that highlighting his admission is giving him five minutes more of fame need to take another look at the affects his words are still having. It is why I say he is one of the many wellsprings of institutionalized homophobia that still has the county in it's grip.

And just as the George Allen Rekkers "rentboy scandal" landed a fell blow to the exgay movement by poointing out the hypocacy of it's proponents...so to does broadcasting Camerons admission to gay attraction further call into question his motivation for conclusions he has drawn about homosexuality and then attempted to scientifically prove.  So the next time an "average" person hears them..they should be recognizable as his and the source of laughter instead of tacitly accepted truth. We need to shine a light on this and bring it to a national awareness in much the same way has happened during the rentboy scandal. The Family Research Council, Exodus International, The Concerned Women for America, and others should not get a pass for using his research and the only way to do that is to shout it from the roof tops. Paul Cameron could not handle his own sexuality...and like many others before and after him, he turned that self hatred outwards onto the gay community. EVERYONE needs to know that...not just those of us who follow certain blogs. Letting this story go by with barely a squeak is a lost opportunity to point out the falsehoods of not only Cameron himself...but also the organisations who are thriving by working to block legal equalities for all LGBT people. People need to know his name and works just as they know Maggie Gallaghers...so the next time they are spoken in a church.....given to a teenager in a pamphlet...or spoken in court of before congress people will know where they are from and recognize the hypocacy which birthed it. These are the people and ideas that we need to know in order to publicly combat these falsehoods...and when a man with a history like like Camerons makes an admission like this one it should not get dismissed because of his percieved irrelevance or get lost in his other crazy ramblings. The man may be out of the public eye but we are still fighting his work everyday.

Until next time dear readers....


72 comments:

  1. Can we talk about how ridiculous Paul Cameron sounds? Taking bias research and throwing his opinion on it claiming it to be fact.... Awful! How do be people like this gain any form of power with a community? When will truth actually be backed up by factual research instead of bigotry and biases?

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    1. as an educated individual, who has taken stats, this is both offensive in the extreme and makes me want to rage and destroy the infidels and perpetrators of lies and deceit. its people like this that make me want to fully embrace the darkness and become the monster that would condemn and destroy. there is a simple honesty to that purpose and it can be used but not by human hands. there is more honor and value in creation and the revelation of truth than in merely destroying so that is what i choose to do, even though i fail and suck most of the time.

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  2. Thanks for the heads-up on this charlatan. If he really is gay, just looking at him I can believe it. The fluttering blinking, the rolling of his eyes as he speaks doesn’t come off very manly to me. So my gaydar is getting a bit of a hit. Yet, he isn’t so very feminine that, without hearing about this admission of his, I would necessarily suspect he’s gay just by looking and listening to him. Basically the concept of gaydar is mostly a misnomer except when viewing a very feminine, flamboyant guy. Except for that narrow application, you just can’t tell unless you take time to carefully study who someone does and doesn’t look at in public and how, and who has that kind of time to hyper-analyze someone like that?

    Exposing Cameron and his discredited research and the organizations which still use it is just part of what needs to happen. The real scientific evidence out there doesn’t support Cameron’s positions; it supports us. That real science also needs to be presented to demonstrate that sexual orientation isn’t chosen or decided upon, it’s something we all just discover about ourselves and it was all biologically determined. Later exposures to certain things (“dangerous” ideas or life experiences) won’t alter orientation. Nor can it be changed even medically. You can’t take two teenage boys, for example, jam a needle into their heads and into the hypothalamus, the part of the brain believed to control what we’re attracted to, and then suction out testosterone in the straight teen and flip him over to gay, nor can you inject testosterone into the hypothalamus now of a gay teen, who didn’t get enough testosterone in utero to develop into being straight, and then convert him now to be heterosexual. A critical window opens and then closes at 8 weeks of gestation and there are no do-overs after that time. Gays don’t try to convert others to be gay too in part because they know it doesn’t work.

    Reparative therapy won’t work either, although it can so torment a gay teen that he commits suicide and, depending how viciously conservative one might be, that still counts as a win for their side. Yeah, I thought I caught them high-fiving over there….

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  3. loosely related side tangent..speaking of stereotypes, in making a silly comment about a guy being good looking on a bad day i had to deal with the whole gay=adulterer thing from mom. unfortunately, there is lots of truth to that one here and i have been the 'other man' (among many others) but i do not seek out that kind of 'relationship', it is not what i want to be and why i have made comments about the sanctity of a marriage coming from within that relationship whatever the rules of that relationship are.

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    1. I personally would want to steer away from being “the other man” even if a couple wanting to open their relationship invited me in. Comparisons are inevitable and there always will be someone out there hotter than your other half or has a bigger, more beautiful cock or whatever. I probably value the sanctity of their relationship more than such people do themselves and I don’t want the prospect of breaking up a happy couple on my conscience. At any rate, I’ve never made such a comment to someone I knew to be both straight and narrow minded. I just haven’t been willing to provoke that kind of controversy in person so far.

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    2. i did not mean to imply that im on the street corner shouting at straight couples. its more general commentary on fb and (i.e) here (but not exclusively, i have no problem saying this to your face when the topic comes up)) when it has happened in the past, that i have been involved, its usually that i dont find out till after the fact that hes married and i look for ring (actual and tan lines, et al) and i ask outright, i am generally very clear that im not interested in 'married' men but men can be dogs and i am by no means a saint.
      my main issue is if your married why are you in the pool? if your acting within the rules of your relationship fine but be honest about it and i have gotten that too-usually i tell them cool for you but im not interested in being your strange. there are exceptions (im fairly liberal that way and i know that any other person would be unable to affect my relationship as far as i am concerned) and im not at all out to end anyone's relationships-if i dont think the relationship can handle it i have and will walk away and i certainly do not seek out that kind of dead end not-relationship...yet it still happens occasionally.

      the other side of the point im making is that as no one else can live my life for me and cannot be responsible for my decisions, ultimately, i cannot therefore be responsible for theirs. if they choose not honor the commitment they made and lie to me(and to their spouse) to get in my pants, and i miss it, then excluding my protecting myself, i am not and cannot be responsible for that decision. does not mean i dont get angry and want to swear off men forever and ive gone nearly 2 years w/o any kind of sex with other people. i remember having my regular stable, i never thought id be that guy but meh, and it did include a guy i was trying to have a relationship with who told me after two years that his 'roommate' had proposed to him. i was really slow on the uptake in that one. we were both busy and working, i was traveling with my job and he is in the medical fields, so i did not really think about the fact that it was only every month or so that we got to hang out but i discovered that i was his hit of whatever when he was fighting with his on-again, off-again 'roommate' and the other people he saw during that time.

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    3. Are you ugly,cute,average,or hot?

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    4. Your question could be a bit subjective depending on what you like. Steeldrago has his own Youtube channel, so you can watch and decide for yourself according to whatever your standards happen to be.

      As an example, someone like me who likes bears, especially muscle bears, probably would find any so-called twinks or fems to be extremely unattractive, but someone else who does like that niche might find bears profoundly unappealing. Bears and fems are the polar opposites within the gay spectrum.

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    5. well, frankly i cant answer that for you. i neither know you nor your taste. that said. i am a sexy beast that can put the recipient of my attention in other worlds of pleasure. i am a nasty pig, though i by no means get into more filth than i have to (somethings just go with the territory). i am fearless in my love, in all regards and many don't have a clue how to deal with that(occasionally even me). if you like twinks, keep on walkin', this masculine bear (while working on the muscle part) fully embraces his fuzzy lovin', safely. o and i have been known to be 'seen' in the 'right' venue and occasionally the 'wrong' but i work to keep it willing. i am a millenial and a dancing, skyclad, in the rain and moonlight pagan.

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  4. One of the BIGGEST obstacles to gay rights in this country comes not from straight people but from closeted gay people. Their self loathing is off the charts. They are so miserable with their self hated. When they see gay people who are out and happy their jealousy kicks in and they will do whatever they can to try and make our lives as miserable as theirs. I do think society is waking up and finally realizing this. How many times have we seen a politician who has voted anti-gay staggering drunk out of a gay bar?..or getting caught hiring a male prostitute? People can live their lives the way they want but when their internal homophobia affects MY LIFE and MY RIGHTS then this is crossing the line. I say expose them all!

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    1. Jim,

      Let’s say a presently self-hating closet case gets hit with both the anecdotal evidence of lack of choice in orientation AND the scientific evidence of what happens (or fails to happen) in utero which results in whatever orientation we have. (87% of females and 93 to 94% of males reporting zero or very little choice in their gay orientation. This was a study admitted in evidence in the Golinski DOMA case.) So, how likely do you believe that such a closet case would continue to hold onto that self-hatred even after finally understanding conclusively that his being gay is simply something part of him biologically and not capable of being changed? Wouldn’t it then become entirely irrational to persist in that self-hatred? And once that self-hatred is discarded—if in fact it is--wouldn’t such an individual come to realize that, by staying all alone in the closet, HE is personally responsible—and no one else—for his own unhappiness? One of the central lessons of the Depfox channel is that being gay doesn’t mean you have to either stay all alone or have a sleezy and sordid life (two stereotypes) and that you can have a life full of love, happiness, stability and security just like what a happy heterosexual couple enjoys. Don’t be jealous of the Leffews for being happy. If you want that kind of happiness for yourself, get off your dead ass, get out there and make it happen. It’s not going to be special delivered to your home as a side dish along with your Domino’s Pizza….

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  5. Steeldargo73? If so then no comments...I hate bears with a passion. Their so sloppy and big and dress bad, don't shave like any where,and they have the most lowest vocie every its grody

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    1. The really overweight ones are called "chubbs" but, other than that, I don't think bearyness needs to have any weight connotation at all. Jamie, go check out the porn site www.hairyboyz.com to see what, at least to me, hot muscle bears look like. If that doesn't have you just drooling, see an optometrist--fast! :-D Seriously, burying your face in a huge, muscular chest of manfur WOULDN'T make you go wild? :-O Doing that would make me go completely insane! Yeaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhh!!

      As for the bad dress, that's probably a stereotype too. There not all a bunch of Larry The Cable Guy fashion copycats.... :-D

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    2. Steeldrago,

      The bear community is something I just happened to discover on Youtube. There's some pretty hilarious terminoloy that gets used in the bear community. For the life of me, I cannot figure out what an "otter" or a "wolf" is. As a bear yourself, can you explain those to me? And what would we call a really tall bear? A giraffe? :-D :-D

      Got a great idea for playing dress up with a real giraffe (the animal) to make it more bear-compatible. Put a sleeveless flannel shirt on its body, a mount a keg of beer on its back with an extra long sippy straw for its guzzling pleasure, tie a Jimi Hendrix-styled headband/scarf around its head in bear flag stripes and colors and a bear claw tattoo on its rump. :-D We just made ourselves a new mascot! :-D

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    3. that would be awesome! i can answer that -ish, its kind of confusing because people claim what they want regardless of any actual 'resemblance.' otters and wolves tend to be leaner than bears in reality and in regards to those who claim the title. since you like muscle bears 'wolves' will appeal to you a LOT and they tend to be older, 'otters' tend to be hairy thinner guys that are not necessarily muscle gods, a bit of love handles kind of thing.

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    4. nah, im all for man-scaping (read strategic shaping not removal-although im not opposed to a shaving scene it does grow back after all), it makes one feel good to look good. im no hippie though despite my long hair. any comparison to daniel lawrence whitney is a compliment, he is a highly intelligent and very well educated. ditto for any (intentional or not) comparison to Ka D'argo i would have tentacle sex with him anytime, in front of my mom, and ben browder is absolutely yummy-i would not kick him out of bed for eating crackers. i really had little option in choosing bear. bear has walked with me since my first nightmare and i am honored among the tribes of gaea to be his scion. yeah sometimes we forget that we are so much bigger than everyone else but dont confuse our lumbering for 'sloppy'(or stupid) we dont like to break the rest of ya'll unless you piss us off(and i aint).
      though there is a season for all things including 'hate' i highly recommend that you stop letting it devour you, jamie. love is so much more enjoyable a thing and is far better at giving you a life worth living.

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    5. i just realized i did not answer all of your question, dave. the tall bear would be a big bear, you could perhaps call him a kodiak or polar bear depending on his age, inclination and hair color. im a little bear but just cause i dont have to bend over to do certain things to certain other bears is no insult. (and no im not a midget) i have been called a leprechaun before too..i suppose i have granted some wishes in the past so it's reasonable.

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  6. It seems hard to say if his is a case of self hate for sure or not, but it would seem that it is a case of deeply repressed desires that he can not get past or deal with in a constructive way. Instead he rages against those that he sees who are able to deal with their feelings in a constructive way and build a life that actually makes them happy.

    To me as politically uncorrected as it seems to some, I think that such things about any one that rallies against LGBT rights, and glimmer of self hatred should be exposed for the world to see, so that they can fully understand that the person dose not come from a place of logic but from a place of insecurity. To enable logic and truth to further destroy the lies of those that are against our rights.

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    1. i agree that for the sake of understanding and clarity and honesty that this behavior needs to be revealed for what it is. i dont think logic will have anything to do with it though.

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  7. Dave-I totally agree. Having been on both sides of the closet door I can say that life inside is in black and white and life outside is in high def color. Why then do people not embrace who they are? If I hear the fanatics say that being gay is a choice one more time I think I will become ill. The only choice one has is to come out or not. I cannot even imagine that closeted life anymore. Living a life of loneliness or worse yet marrying someone of the opposite sex just to make it "look right" is not living. My partner and I have been together for 21 years now. We have had a blast. You are correct..you have to get off your butt and make it happen. Prince Charming is not going to come knocking on your door...

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    1. awesome jim, gratz on your 21 years. while im still a work in progress in that regard i absolutely agree that it is an issue of putting in the work. while a depth of color has been added for other reasons i agree with your analogy. it boggles my mind as well that people are so willing to remain unhappy.

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    2. Steeldrago,

      Please answer my "otter/wolf" question above. I'd really like to know....

      Thanx

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    3. i just did dave..i think you'll like it.
      ooo, ive been mulling this over for a few minutes.. in the vids where bryan is lamenting his 'dad flab' (that we all love) he could easily be considered an 'otter' there, especially being so shy. bryan has already told us jay is his wookie so im not even going to go there. };P i need to work that into a D&D game, somehow..the wookie, the otter, a monkey and a princess...hmmm. and with the sound off i may now love 'adventure time' i just saw a leather clad johnson reference among a bunch of gay subtext.

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    4. By your description, I wonder if I might be an otter myself. I may be old enough in actual years to pass for a wolf, but most people think I look 10 years younger or more than I really am, so wolf definitely doesn't apply to me looks-wise. Brown hair, mustache, but no beard otherwise, some sideburns but not good ones, low to moderate on chest and belly hair,some back hair but so light and fine as to be unnoticeable, some love handles, but definitely not muscular or fat. And, Jamie, I don't wear sleeveless flannel and I hate plaid as too redneck trailer trashy for my taste. So maybe I'm a chaser/otter mutt. :-D

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    5. the age aspect is there but kind of, almost a veneer. its really whichever you feel like the most. if your shy in person then yeah id say 'otter.' if you are simply discreet when you need to be but can be/are the aggressor then 'wolf.' it has far more to do with attitude than with the physical, there are fuzzy wuzzies that claim bear too so, go figure.

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    6. Shy equals "otter?" Hmmm.... Any shyness I have comes from the internal awkwardness I feel when trying to navigate my way through a straight world. If around my own kind, I think the shyness would go out the window because I feel so much more comfortable, like how I feel here. In that setting, I think I'd be fairly gregarious if not outright flirty. Maybe I'm a "wolf."

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  8. I just simply find bears simply sexual unattractive hairy beast. I like my guys clean. No hair expects the ones above their eyes and on their head….I like beards too though, but reasonable ones. I like my guys to be fashionable and know what in and what’s out Bears don’t give a shit on how they look , they pick up the first thing off the ground and put it on, it’s like boy bye not with them shoes on. And also bears drink beer like it water, I can’t stand the taste of beer or smell of it. It makes me sick in the stomach. Just pass me my Pinot Grigio and I’m good to go. And lastly bears think they are tough because they have so called the ‘muscle’, girl please it just a bunch of rolls of fat. I knew a bear once, but I couldn’t stand him. He was sexual disgusting. Have you ever read the tell-tale heart. And how Edgar Allen Poe didn’t hate the old man, just his eye. That’s how I felt towards him, but I wasn’t going to kill him though loll. I kind of hate him exactly... He was slob-like and yea

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    1. well sir, not being attracted to any given bear is fine. stereotyping others because of one experience, or alot, is not acceptable. some bears are as fashion conscious as any queen though the style differs. as a bear who dislikes beer in general, not all of us treat it like its water but american beer sucks ass regardless of your subculture, though there are those that love it(and more for them i say) yeah some of us are rolie polie, myself included but that does not mean we all are. i myself am working on being less the fat man and yogurt rocks, but there are those that are solid brick walls, even if they dont look it. you seem very young to me, and i apply this to myself as well, the paint by number fantasy in your brain is wrong, it lacks vital information. whatever you like is fine for you but dont let that interest blind you to the other stuff

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    2. Jamie,

      What turns me on first is muscular. Coming in as a close second is hairiness and, for me, it tremendously enhances the first element. There’s a third element which, when combined with muscular and hairy, makes me completely stark raving mad with horny-ness. And that’s dark, which could mean simply a nice tan to absolutely anything racially. I also like black. A black dude who’s good looking and muscular turns me on every bit as much as a conventional (usually Caucasian)muscle bear. Blacks are usually smooth, but I’ve had the rare treat a few times of coming across a painfully gorgeous black muscle god who’s hairy too. When confronted with that, I may be able to maintain my composure—somewhat—on the outside but, inside, I’m completely freaking out with hunger for him. Maybe combining muscle bearyness with black is my hottest erotic fantasy of all.

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    3. WOW,Dave........

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    4. I don't think I'm sexual into black guys...I kinda just stick with the white guys..loll But I like asian guys too. Those would probably be the only kind of people I would consider dating...yea

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    5. Jamie,

      I am completely open to ALL races and that includes white as well. Dark isn’t a requirement for me; it’s merely an added plus when present. I have no idea what racial version of Mr. Right will get to me first. All I do know is whichever he is, that’s what I’ll go with.

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    6. Are like in your 30's

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    7. Early 50's. You're not by chance trying to ask me out on a date, are you? :-D :-D Seriously though, most people think I look quite young for my age. It's not unusual for them to guess I'm 10 years younger than what I really am. Sometimes, they'll guess even younger.

      I'm also rather wild for my age. In part, that comes from not being a parent. I also think my crazy humor and my flipped-out, druggie music keeps me forever young in some ways.

      There's some good news from the far side of 50 I can pass on to you. If, for instance, at age 25 or whatever you're a headbanging crazy person who cranks up the car stereo 'til your ears bleed, that's something you won't outgrow. That's one way you will stay forever young too....

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  9. Bryan,
    i certainly did not intend to turn this into a fetish conversation so if i made you feel badly by seeming to ignore your post you have my apologies. i will say directly. in general i agree with you on the topic but its also broader because i think the same 'rules' apply to those who are like this on any topic. they have become unhealthily obsessed and are making decisions from a deluded state. which we all need to know especially when those with any broad power are making decisions off those delusions. then we have people like tony perkins and of all the types out there, he knows he is lying and sells it to his audience-who want to believe hes telling the truth, and this is the stuff that genuinely makes me want to call to the chaos and feed it some people on a bloody altar. i wont for other reasons but i try to point out to my friends and anyone viewing my fb or in commentary when i was in class that he is the kind of crocodile that mr perkins is.
    yes there was actually a time i was the shy guy but i feel like that got me shite and 'sex' is easy it can be a fantasy (and a convenient lie) from top to bottom and all the way around.

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  10. Bryan,

    The beginning of Steeldrago’s comment here gives rise to a question I have which might not otherwise have occurred to me to ask. It’s one which I hope you’ll actually answer and I think it’s in your own best interest that you do, as you’ll see shortly…. In any topic you have, even I start with on-topic remarks. I’ll also engage others here concerning their own on-topic comments as you saw me do above with Jim. And, in some on-topic comments I make myself, I sometimes free-associate to analogous experiences I have had which are not themselves on topic when I bring them up. But conversations do develop and evolve and, as you can tell, I’m a very conversational guy. The kinds of things I say here, jokes and all, are exactly what I’d be saying in person if I were with “my own people.” I’m super honest and open here (because I feel so comfortable here) and my comments are such that any of you here meeting me in the physical world would have a sense of already knowing me.

    But, when I do participate in or create an off-topic conversation, I do my best to keep them in a visually narrow-looking reply chain so it doesn’t get visually commingled with other comments which ARE more on topic. I try to make it visually easy for a reader to skip over our sidebar if they’re not interested in it, because it’s normally easy to tell where the aside begins and ends. I concede it would be quite inappropriate NOT to visually separate them as I do.

    My question for you is along these lines: Do I make you feel uncomfortable or annoyed by me doing the things you see me do around here? Those sidebars get awfully lively and they are a blast to be a part of and they take on the same fluidity that real conversations in the physical world have. And humor is a big part of who I am and I have as much trouble suppressing it in the physical world as I do here. But, as fun as these sidebars are and as visually separate as they are, they ARE profoundly off topic and I concede that. But are you bothered by them? Or is doing what I do okay with you as long as I continue visually separating them?

    I’ve always been open and honest with you. I hope you’ll speak your mind this time and be as honest with me back.

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    1. this is exactly why i apologized. bryan has commented about not liking to discuss certain things, after watching so much of his gay collab vids and seeing him interact w/ jay i think we are relatively ok and he has not told us to knock it off, but having put in a lot of work on something it can be upsetting when it is upstaged by other topics. this one especially i think i have played a significant role in that regard. my hope is that bryan (and jay) gets a giggle off them and enjoys them as much as we do (and i understand y he may be hesitant to respond like he has in previous posts) he has commented, in the vids. (and i have been an inappropriately over-sharing a**hole-in my opinion- im working on it)

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    2. I've always understood Bryan and, frankly, both he and Jay, as not wanting to discuss THEMSELVES very personal, private things like what goes on in their sack. That has absolutely nothing to do with what we may talk about among ourselves in a sidebar here. Now how sensitive Bryan might be about supposed upstaging issues remains to be seen. But that one gay collab video with Bryan in a kinky tie-up like he got lassoed and tied up at a gay rodeo gives away that someone in that household has a very robust sense of humor. We just don't know who yet. (I bet it's Jay. He's more forward which might suggest he's naughtier too.) So they may peeing themselves with laughter too just like we do. I hope so. I do it as much for them as anyone else here.

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    3. And I don't think you have an over-sharing problem. When it comes to opening up, I probably have you beat on that one around here. But it's in the opening-up process that people connect better and make better friends. A closed off person is not very enjoyable to be around.

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    4. o, by the time i found bryan's blog i had found a small measure restraint. im actually referring to what i shall call 'my warning label.' things were very, very bad and i was doing things i really ought not to (and that were creepy and inappropriate and borderline legal) and that i myself am morally opposed to and my 'brother' (from another mother) did not tell me to stop being whatever the hell i was (including suicidal). at this point i just feel like a heel about that whole damn period, i could not have done differently, though. i will drop it at some point im just not there yet.
      now, im much more stable- having had therapy i can say that and no i have never been diagnosed with anything. i am over compensating and that too will pass.
      i have to say bryan and his family are not the-rest-of-the-world-that-can-go-fuck-itself to me. when i needed, Desperately, something good even if only to see there they magically were, for me quite literally a fantasy come true. i assume you have seen my mentors vid. add to that them both being very pretty, in a wonderfully masculine way, i made comments that i probly should not have, elsewhere. im not sorry for them or even my comments here, im being honest and im not doing anything to further anything inappropriate. i am sorry for any negative whatever may have come from that-and thats what i expect.
      this is also why bryan and jay have absolute authority to tell me to shut the hell up here or on youtube- i respect them enough that anywhere really, im not sure i can do it myself when needed. i dont know that i would recognize the need before the fact.

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    5. I did see your mentors video, but just once. I don't remember so well what all you said. I seem to recall it was an unusually quite video an hard to hear over laptop speakers even turned up all the way. The part I remember was you mentioning Jay and Bryan and noticing your eyes were blinking more rapidly behind your glasses and it looked like you were feeling emotional there. I'll need to go watch it again. I have no personal knowledge of what you might have said to them elsewhere which you now feel was inappropriate, so I can't comment on that one way or another.

      Much of what happened in this thread resulted from you being asked if you were ugly or hot and I said that's basically unanswerable without knowing what he's attracted to. I didn't just get up one morning and say, "You know, I feel like telling the whole world about all my erotic fantasies and I know the perfect place to do it." It just happened because we had a conversation going that took on a life of its own and I was just along for the ride.

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    6. lol, thats why i dont feel bad for saying anything. its the convo. mebbe i misunderstood bryan in regards to topics of discussion. i took him as meaning that our current thread is outside his comfort zone of discussion-despite jay's comments to the contrary, which makes me a rude ass for not stopping before it went like it did. i wont do it again. you live, you
      learn, you move on and you have fun along the way. love and blessings always.

      yeah i noticed mentors was quiet, i dont exactly know what happened. mebbe i will transcipt under it, some of my comments may require qualification. i almost cried there, again. i will say, not being numb now, i did not even know that i was. i knew i was not whole but i did not know the difference it made.

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    7. The confusion you had about acceptable discussion topics arose from a Depfox video you saw. It was Episode 9 of Ask A Gay Family. The topic was monogamy and, at one point Jay started bringing up some bedroom incompatibility issues they once had. Bryan was extremely uncomfortable about such a matter being brought up, but Jay insisted it was relevant to monogamy between them and a couple of times he strayed early in their relationship. THAT was the difference of opinion they had and you might have felt some tension between them in the video as if a near-argument had been narrowly avoided. They have since said that Episode 9 would be the last time they ever comment on private bedroom matters and that any new questions going to that area would NOT be answered. So, you see, it’s purely about what THEY are willing to talk about THEMSELVES. Absolutely nothing to do with what WE talk about here.

      The problem with this thread wasn’t what our sidebars were about per se. It’s that they may have gone too long this time.

      Putting together two (or more) very talkative people can be dangerous sometimes. We are now having an evolving conversation about our evolving conversations! :-D I wouldn’t be surprised if our next topic of conversation will be how conversationally evolved are we to have conversated over past conversated evolvings we originally conversed and evolved over! :-D :-D Darwin would surely hang himself after reading this last sentence! :-D :-D

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    8. i recall that vid. i will never ask about their personal behaviors(on a purely lust level i want to know but im drawing that line). i will pick in a sideways manner because that is my humor, though.

      perhaps.
      i do love convo, it can be as fun as sex. it is after all mental masturbation.

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  11. lol..noo.
    I thought you were like 30 because you came off like mature and like chill lol. You don't seem like your in your 50's..you don't seem like the average 50 year old lol.

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    1. You think I come off mature?!? Time to scale back on the weed, dude! :-D :-D Well, if I'm being serious, I suppose I do come across that way. It's when I'm being silly that I seem way younger. No, I definitely am not like the average 50 year old. At least not 50 year olds as you may have known them most of your life. Boomers remember are inherently freakier people. The older ones of us are former hippies, and I mean the original hocus-pocus-barefoot-in-the-park-acid-casualty-Woodstock-Nation types. Our generation lives somewhat by the motto of "I may be getting older but I refuse to grow up." Of course, that couldn't possibly describe anybody here now, could it? :-D

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    2. I don't smoke....loll.are you a baby boomer?

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    3. Yes, I am. Baby boomers are said to be born between 1946 and 1964. I was born in 1959 so, while I'm still a boomer, I'm considered a very young one.

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  12. dave
    we will meet at some leather bear event i bet...i just know it. mebbe by then i will be an actual biker, rather than the current wannabe that i am. i will tell you when im going too, that way neither of us are there 'alone' ;D im not gonna say its a date but if it goes that way its fine by me. just sayin' lol

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    1. But I'm in Nebraska whereas you're in Texas. You'll need to tie your chopper down on the wing of a Delta flight to get your butt up here. :-D So how seducible are you on a first d...I mean leather bear event? :-D :-D

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    2. Asking how seducible you are on a first...whatever? That's sounding pretty wolf-like to me. Grrrrr :-D

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    3. How old is steeldrago?

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    4. dave
      kansas city has a kickin' bear/leather scene or it did, according to the research i have done. i love to travel. by jay's definition, i am a whore so the question of seducable is entirely moot. im not inviting that right now, though. i howl so wolves are no problem to me. i actually want to got to folsom and big bear lake but i dont see it happening anytime soon. i just happen to think your pretty cool and you are generally the kind of person i like to hang with anyway. while i have not been able to listen to the songs you linked yet, time is precious, i heard enough that in general, im digging them. there is also always halloween in nola.

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    5. Steeldrago,

      The seducing remark was a joke. Nobody is really asking you to put out. :-D I was just exploring my newly-found inner wolf. :-D

      What a freaky coincidence that you mentioned the Kansas City bear scene. I’m going there this Memorial Day to see a screening of The Right To Love in the Westport district and I wanted to go to a bear bar afterwards. In researching bears I found the Kansas City Cave Bears organization and on their links page, there are a number of bear bars to choose of from and two of them are reasonably close to the theater and my hotel. Wait a minute. You probably went back to last week’s thread again,didn't you, so you may already have known I’m going there.

      You may have seen me comment before that I’ve emerged from a 15 year period of taking care of my disabled mother, now deceased. I had previously indicated that those years were in many ways lost years to me and that the damage done to my social life was substantial. One such impact on the social side was that I haven’t been living as out as I might otherwise have done and that I have never been to a gay bar as an out gay man. I think back in college, there was one time when I and some friends accidentally walked into what turned out to be a gay bar but, back then I was in straight-pretend mode, so we left there pretty fast.

      I want to make this new experience more worthwhile, so that’s why I researched the Kansas City bear scene a little too. If I were to go to a more mainstream gay bar, I might have to put up with drag shows and fembots and I’m seriously not into them. For myself, I want masculine and nothing else, so it only makes sense to go to a bear bar because that’s a niche I already know I like. I’m going there mainly to get a feel for the scene in person and to see if people there like me. This would be a highly appropriate time to turn on the ol’ humor machine. Although I’m packing protection, I’m not going with a deliberate intent to hook up. If there’s someone there who really REALLY likes me and I feel for them too, I may end up going with the flow and my hotel “guest” may need to eventually seek treatment for “shaken bear syndrome” after making his brains rattle so much. :-D If I do that, Jamie will be so proud of me for actually living up to my newly-acquired reputation of being a crazed fuck beast. :-D :-D

      Whatever happens, it should be fun. But I finally want to experience that hi def color world Jim Stone speaks of with real, breathing people I can see and touch and not just the damn computer screen.

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    6. no coincidence at all sir, it was directly in response to your comments. go. do. enjoy. take lots of pictures, be safe.

      my friends and i intentionally go to the gay bar, when we go, because its a better bar. i did make out with a guy one new years and i threatened my then single, straight friend with a kiss for that same new years. it was fun.

      i know you were playing on the putting out comment but, honestly, i have (cause thats what gay dudes do? right? they fuck everything on two legs with or without a penis? and sometimes other things too? more than straight guys even.) i have been safe and i did not completely take that to heart (eeewww..vaginas! and eewww sheep!) and literally follow that example but i did give up on any thought of having a real relationship and a family of my own.

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    7. eeewwwww....fish tacos!! Get me some mouthwash fast before I hurl! :-D :-D

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  13. Dave is one horny muthafucka

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    1. In light of what’s been said above, I suppose I have no choice but to plead guilty to the horny part. But I don’t do muthas. Fish tacos have never worked for me regardless of who’s serving them. :-D :-D

      Jamie, I have had so much fun here. Some of what’s gone on here has been just hysterical. But I have to tell you, even I am starting to get concerned now that we may be overdoing it a bit and that, if we keep it up quite this much, particularly banter about who’s the biggest freak in heat around here—we’ve got that one figured now thanks :-D –-I think we might be in danger of wearing out our welcome here. If we don’t control ourselves at least some, maybe someone else will do it for us, if you know what I mean. And if that were to happen, to re-apply Jim Stone’s analogy above of life out of the closet being in hi def color and life inside in black and white, we could lose the hi def color we now enjoy here and it could turn to its own black and white and that would ruin the ambience here. It would be a good idea if we dial it back a bit so that doesn’t happen. But we need your help too. Okay?

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  14. one last tangent. where do i post the picture of bryan's other twin that i am going to take?

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    1. Will it be in video form? If so, maybe on your channel or on the feed tab of the depfox channel? Just guessing. This sounds techier than I know how to handle.

      A Bryan twin? Are you by chance posting a picture from the beartuality website? I saw a pic there of someone who looked a lot like Bryan, but even hotter and in a muscle bear version.
      Speaking of hot, go the the feed tab of Depfox and near the top there's some Australian cub dude who posted a couple of questions for a later Ask A Gay Family. Whoever he is, he's gorgeous to me, almost painfully so. He is the epitome of what I like. Go check him out. Major, major woof!

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    2. lol.. no. this guy at the local commercial foods supply looks nearly identical..i seriously almost asked where jay and the kids were. i was utterly stunned.

      im not sure that hotter is possible in regards to bryan. seriously. more available definitely and that would qualify in some ways but dude..especially in that halloween vid they did were bryan was in the 'uniform' if jay ever could get bryan to enter a leather contest im dead certain he would win hands down. assuming it was not a pig contest 'cause bryan does not strike me as down for that.
      i am a happily willing minion to bryan, jay too perhaps. i could definitely be a smithers but thats another world.

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    3. Hotter than Bryan? Yes, it is possible. What I saw on the bertuality site was someone with nearly identical hair and beard, but a more rugged, muscley look to him a la Gladiator Russell Crowe. You would have had to see what I saw, but the bertuality Bryan-look-alike is unbearably gorgeous.

      Yes, I saw the Halloween video too. This is the first time I've seen him blush. He looks great with extra color on his face. A tan on him would be awesome.

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    4. lol...i have no problem with beartuality. its more clubby than i care to join though. i really dont like bars/clubs.
      ggrrr...russell has been my fantasy husband for years! lol

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    5. I’m getting so excited now for my Right To Love trip to Kansas City I’m practically jumping out of my skin. And all of the three bear bars I was considering going after the film will be open Memorial Day. The first place I called was honest enough to say they get a mixed crowd, although at least some bears would be there but, if I wanted a more concentrated dose of bear culture, to try the other two. The one I’ve decided to go to is the home base for the Kansas City Cave Bears organization so, if I want the full blast of whatever bear culture is like, this is the place to go. In terms of bear characteristics facially, I come pre-equipped with mustache and sideburns but I’m letting my face in the would-be goatee area grow a little so I’m scruffier and sexier for them when I arrive. I’m hoping to arrive in KC mid-afternoon.

      There’s one thing I’m a little torn over what to do though. And that’s whether to show up early at the bear bar and tell them about the 7:00 showing and that this is their only chance to see it except for buying the DVD later this summer. If they also want the same communal experience that I do of seeing it with “our own people,” it’s now or never. This is all assuming that we will returning afterwards. It sure would give us all more to talk about afterwards and it might be an easy way of getting someone to see it with me. On the other hand, showing up early and telling practically everyone about the movie potentially could have the effect of emptying out the place, which would not at all be appreciated by the owners.

      Anyone from there who comes with me and DOESN’T watch the Depfox channel will be unprepared for what a tearjerker this is, so I could have a mob of sobbing bears on my hands. Better pack extra tissues for them… 

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    6. Bryan,

      Since I don’t have a Youtube account and can’t comment on anyone’s videos there, I’ll do it here regarding your OCD. You once had a blog post on this same subject which I found by accident. Way back when I looked on the left side of your blog page at the log of visitors and what they were viewing. That’s the only way I had any idea that post was there.

      When I originally read your OCD post and the nature of your obsessive thoughts, I wasn’t the least bit surprised. You’ve been extremely traumatized by “hate coaches” behind pulpits spewing venom directly at you and our people ad nauseum. As religious as you are and as verbally and spiritually beat up as you are, it would be a miracle for you not to have this.

      I assume the church you go to now is more LGTB-accepting than your former catholic church. But the problem for you probably is the damage has already been done. And the church you go to now inevitably visually resembles the venue where you received your prior abuse. So continuing to go there could mentally send you back to your prior ordeal, much like a PTSD war veteran keeps having flashbacks. For such a veteran, the threatening and upsetting imagery plays in his head. But arguably for you, it’s much worse because there’s a real look-alike image in the physical world—the church you currently go to—to elicit that bad trip over and over again.

      Maybe counseling and/or medication won’t be enough for you. It may well be that going to any church at all could impede your recovery because it presents a threatening visual image for you every Sunday that rips the scab off the wound in your mind, so you don’t have an opportunity to heal. You suit yourself of course but, had this happened to me, I would stop going at all and just be spiritual in my own way. Being around hate coaches (formerly known as pastors or priests) and their hate parrots (formerly known as the congregation) at all may not be good for you. Just something to consider….

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    7. just much love. nothing else really matters. you are right, bryan, there is so much stigma about getting therapy. i am glad you found what you needed to go and i hope it has done you well. its plain jay has your back and there is nothing like a good cuddle with the kids at the end of the day to lift your spirits. even beyond that, yana as are we all. despite the lies telling us we are desperately alone.

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