Saturday, April 3, 2010

Conservative Christians “with a heart for the homosexual” still don’t get it

Every once in a while an article comes along that blows my socks off. today on Box Turtle Bulletin was just such a post relating to conservative Christianity and the gay community. I found it to be so clear and powerfull in its message that I have asked, and recieved, permission to reprint it in its entirety. Whether or not you agree with it. It may give words to feelings we sometimes can not express. Even with my beliefs and religious upbringing, I resonated with this article. I hope it will be of value for you as well. Without further ado:

By: Timothy Kincaid

With the growing openness of gay men and women and as they become more incorporated into the fabric of the culture, conservative Christianity has been challenged to rethink their position.

For years the only visible response was “it’s a vile sin”. As gay people slowly became visible, up sprang vitriolic “family” groups dedicated to fighting for the civil subjugation of gay people and the denial of social equality or even basic civil rights.

Although this approach was often phrased as “love the sinner, hate the sin”, there was little evidence that the “sinner” was much loved at all. Rather, she was reviled as being immoral, militant, radical, anti-family, and a threat to children, the church, and all of Western civilization. Advertising campaigns, legislation, rallies, and political movements were generated to take away his children, deny his employment or housing, ban him from civil service, tax him more heavily, incarcerate him if he dare fight back, and in all ways keep him a second class citizen.

But over time, secular voices were joined by mainline Christians in calling such treatment barbarian and un-Christian. And some of the younger conservative Christians had a hard time aligning the “evil homosexual” image with those gay men and women they know.

So a new face of conservative Christianity is arising calling for more tolerance and seeking to share a loving God with their gay neighbors, to welcome them and love them rather than loudly condemn them.

And almost without exception, they get it entirely, completely, and miserably wrong.

Rather than see gay people as people, we are seen as a mission field, lost and desperate sinners trapped in a sinful and dangerous lifestyle hopelessly searching for acceptance and grace. And they come into the discussion with the assumption that their understanding of Scripture is not only true, but universally accepted.

Too often, conservative Christians start with the premise that gay folk share their beliefs about homosexuality:

■all humans feel a draw to know God and live according to His commandments; and knowing Him, on any terms, is good

■all sex other than one man, one woman under the covenant of heterosexual marriage is unquestionably condemned by God

■homosexuality is acting out on ungodly temptation to sin

■if gay people only came to feel loved by God then they would give up their sinful lifestyle

But these are not assumptions that our community accepts. And often, these are assumptions have no more practical applications to our lives than than carrying a “God Hates Fags” signs.

These “more tolerant” conservatives generally come bearing a specific message, one that seems to have stepped in to replace “love the sinner, hate the sin”. It goes something like this:

We all are sinners. We gossip and lie and get angry and make mistakes all the time. God forgives us all and sees no sin as greater than any other sin. God loves homosexuals and forgives their sins as quickly as he forgives the sins of anyone else.

And they sit back waiting for the homosexual sinners to come kiss their hands with tears streaming down their faces, oh so thankful for this charity.

But what these Christians fail to see is that we do not see our sexual orientation in terms of behavior. We are not gay because we do gay things. We are gay because we are internally, inherently drawn in matters of romantic, emotional, sexual and spiritual attraction to persons of the same sex.

The sins that this tolerant Christian sees God forgive in his life are based on his own behaviors; his failings are his own actions. But the sins that he sees God forgive in our lives are not behavioral, but inherent; our failings are intrinsic and will be present no matter what we do.

And when gay folk reject this overture, as we do, they indignantly reply, “Well! I called myself a sinner, too! What more to you want?”

Take, as illustration, a Christian bus message campaign in Toronto. Amidst a number of other questions posted on bus benches by Bus Stop Bible Studies, was this one:

The website to which the reader was directed sought to “show love” and sensitivity. First, they explained why gay people are gay (cached):

Reason 1 – The fall of mankind. Death and decay came into the world when Adam sinned.

Reason 2 – Refusing to know God. In Paul’s Letter to the Romans he explains how God will show his displeasure “…as acts of human mistrust and wrongdoing and lying accumulate, as people try to put a shroud over truth.” that is those who have chosen to go against Him.

Well, now, that’s fun. My sexual orientation is either the sad and tragic consequence of sin in the world, much like muscular dystrophy or famine or it is the consequence of rebellious me refusing to know God. Either a generic ill or a punishment.

Gee, that isn’t particularly encouraging. So next we get the love and grace message. Even though we are the consequence of Original Sin or of godless rebellion, there’s Good News!

Does God love homosexuals?

Yes! Without exception.

Are my responsibilities as a homosexual any different from heterosexuals?

We know from passages throughout Scripture that God hates homosexual acts BUT no more than any other sinful act. Some individuals seem to place homosexual acts in a special class – God does not. Sin is sin.

Homosexual activity is no better or worse than heterosexuals engaging in sexual activity outside of marriage.

Woo hoo. A devoted gay relationship is no more offensive to God than cheating on your spouse. Goodie.

And that’s the nice part. They also shared that AIDS is not God’s judgment… but if you engage in “selfish freewill choices” then “As you sow, so shall you reap.” And, even worse, you may hurt an “innocent person” like a hemophiliac child.

I guess they forgot one little part: he can wake up tomorrow and decide to stop being a cheating, lying, womanizing a$$hat, but I’ll still be gay.

And the extra-special plan that God has for gay people? Is it a lifetime of celibacy?

Perhaps it is never, ever, experiencing romance, flirting, a first date, or a kiss on the beach under the moonlight. Maybe a life of devotion to others, knowing that your last breath will not be with a partner. Being a wonderful uncle or sister or neighbor, but knowing this: God’s Plan is for you to never be the most important person in anyone’s life.

And they wonder why we don’t leap at the opportunity.

“But it’s grace”, they say. “God is as quick to forgive you for your life of love, commitment and devotion to your partner as He is to forgive me of my extramarital affairs. He’ll forgive you for building a life together, for caring until death do you part, He’ll pardon you for experiencing same-sex attraction just as quickly as he forgives a murderer.”

Is it any surprise that some gay people conclude that God is a bully? Or that even more have responded to such nonsense by questioning the existence of gods at all and have come to conclude that it’s all just irrational myth and superstitions?

And, indeed, Toronto’s gay community was not amused. (Torontoist)

After receiving a number of complaints about the “Does God care…?” poster, the TTC sent the offending ad to its advertising review committee to evaluate whether the panels should remain posted. But, says TTC Director of Communications Brad Ross, “That point is moot now that Bus Stop Bible Studies has voluntarily decided to remove the ads.”

But they did not do so graciously.

They removed the website’s “sin” discussion and replaced it with a whiny complaint about how they were misunderstood and now they are being picked on.

The content of this page has been removed. It has become apparent that, while one is free to ask the question, “Does God care if I’m gay?” one is not so free to answer the question from a Biblical perspective.

It seems that the whole message of God’s justice and grace was being misinterpreted.

Oh, those poor bus stop preachers. The nasty gays misinterpreted the message about how they were gay because they rejected God and the notion that with AIDS, “you reap what you sow”.

The funny thing is that I believe that the bus stop folks really do believe that they are tolerant. They didn’t come preaching hate (as they see it). They didn’t even say that you had to become straight to know God.

But their ignorance and presumption was only exceeded by their callousness and self-righteousness. They came bearing the same ol’ steaming pile of dogma, wrapped in smugness and arrogance, and were Shocked! that it was rejected as hateful and offensive.

So here is my message to the conservative Christians who “have a heart for the gay community”: think about what you are saying and how crazy offensive it would be if directed towards anyone else.

You claim that you see all sin the same, but you don’t. No one does. Gossip may be annoying, but we don’t light the torches and gather the pitchforks like we do when a murderer is loose. We don’t amend the constitution to protect the family from those who love money. We don’t pass laws banning liars from serving in Congress or keeping those who curse their parents from serving in the military.

We know that you really do think that our “sin” is so much worse than your own and we are not impressed when you lie and say that you don’t.

And, guess what? We are not sitting around waiting for someone, anyone, to tell us that God loves us. There are gay affirming churches, and we know how to get to them.

Yes, we know that you believe these churches to be wrong, but you believe that a whole lot of churches are wrong about a whole slew of doctrinal issues and the only one you seem interested in addressing is gay people.

Think how odd it would sound to “really have a heart for Lutherans” or “feel God is calling me to evangelize to Episcopalians”. How condescending and arrogant. That’s exactly the same way it feels to us when you come sharing the news that God loves us and if we only just really, really knew that then our lives would be changed.

And for as long as you continue to be part of the movement to deny civil equalities, you will never, ever “reach gay people for Christ”. If your Christ compels you to take away my health insurance, then your Christ is my enemy. If His message of love is to take my children away from me, then I’ll do without that kind of love, thanks.

If your position on my personal freedoms is exactly the same as that of the Phelps family, then you really have nothing to share with me or my community. If your voting pattern is identical to Peter LaBarbera, then your gospel is nothing but a sounding brass or tinkling cymbal.

Don’t get me wrong. I do appreciate that you aren’t calling us abominations and perverts. I really do. Setting aside the language of condemnation and revulsion is a step in the right direction.

But it isn’t as big a step as you think it is.

And as long as you come to us with the message that God wants us to live a love-less life of aloneness and think that we are going to see this as good news, don’t be surprised that we are not impressed. If you think that you are doing us a favor by being “compassionate for our struggle”, then don’t expect any more congratulation than what your are already giving yourself. And until you come up with a theology that reveals God as something other than a bigot or a bully, you can be sure that your “mission to the homosexuals” will not be fruitful.


  1. If conservative christians loved their neighbors as they loved themselves, we would not likely be having these issues.

  2. Good article.

    I love the christian bus signs you have. Christians over here generally don't have enough money for advertising. I can think of only one time it happened, payed for by an African evangelical group.

    In retaliation the National Secular Society put up bus posters that said "God probably doesn't exists, so get on with your life and don't worry about it".

    This made the evangelicals furious so they complained to the advertising standards office.

    Over here you are not allowed to make claims on adverts that are not fully factually justifiable (which is why we don't get those American cosmetics adverts). You can't say thinks like makes your face look three years younger unless you can show some proper research that proves it does.

    I love thinking about that little old civil servant sitting in his office having to decide if god exists or not!

  3. This is so true. It is not very pleasent when a church keeps telling you that your a horrible sinner being this way. I don't like being compared to a murderer. Anyway good article, keep on sharing when you stuble upon them.

  4. I always love that "kinder argument" it's like oh thanks, just what I always wanted to have no love life until the day I die! Whoopie let me rejoice, I never quite understood how they figured other then the fact they where not using the harsh condemning language that, that was a much better message. I mean after all it dose not sound any better if you revers the sexes to make it heterosexual, it still sounds down right miserable and dickish.
    The worst/best part is when the get all upset when you freely tell them you have a great "relationship" with God, and you know that you are meant to be how you are and to be in a happy fulfilled relationship.

  5. This is the most concise article I have ever seen about this. It exactly portrays feelings that I think most in the GLBT community have, but have not been able to put into words. Thanks for sharing!

  6. the thing that i wish i heard more, but i dont, is that scripture never, never, never said homosexuality was a sin. historically this understanding, manifested by cultural influences, was validated by believers assigning meaning to verses in spite of the words of the particular verse, or by adding their own inferred words to other verses.

    because there was a prohibiton against same sex relations in leviticus does not in any way mean that, of itself, was it a sin.

    in additon, under the new covenant in order for anything to be a sin, it must come against the summation of ALL new covenant law...........the 2nd commandment (love your neighbor as yourself).


    in order for it be a sin it must, as paul said, OBVIOUSLY, OBVIOUSLY, OBVIOUSLY by its very own nature(essence) show that it comes against the fruit of the spirit of galatians5("you will recognize them by their fruit".......the fruit of the spirit that is in their lives.)

    the fruit of the spirit is love, joy, peace, kindness, goodness, self-control,patience,faithfulness, and gentleness.


    those thru the ages who have been gay or even those not who embraced homosexuality, did so automatically because they saw and lived the innate goodness in it, whether of god or otherwise.

    they dont need any scripture to tell them of its goodness or that it is of god.

    my words are only for those who are stuck in a wrong teaching passed down generationally for 2000 years.

  7. Great article but it is not with out its own flaws. Me, I am a gay man but also a Christian. If anyone really sits and reads the Holly Bible, you will read that a man shall not sleep with a man nor a woman with a woman because it is a abomination against God himself. It is also true that, God Loves the sinner but not the sin. God loves everyone and he is not selective with his love. I just wish that everyone could get things straight when it comes to being a Christian. On one had we have the Christians that think they can change things and think that God hates gays, then on the other had we have Christians like me that know that God is real and is full of love for everyone. We also have on one hand gays that think that God does not exist or is a very hateful God, which I find so saddening, then on the other hand we have gay people like me that knows God does not hate but loves all. Still I say, God does love the sinner but he does not love the sin. That is written and no one or nothing can change my mind and belief in what God has told us through the Holly Bible. You are not suppost to question it you just have to follow it. My only hope is that each side could just quit bashing the other because sooner or later someone has to take the high road and that is what I am going to do from now on.

  8. how is homosexuality a sin, of what goodness does it violate? how does being gay come against
    the 2nd commandment(love neighbor) the fruit of the spirit and the spirit of christ(love one another). without violation of spirit(spirit of love) there is no sin. under the new covenant we do not have a relationship to god thru regulation as in deut 28, but instead directly to the one who lives in each believer(torn curtain)

    you appear to have one foot in the old covenant....."that which is called old will become obsolete and soon pass away," and in num 15:32-36........a man was stoned to death for violating regulation, when there was no evidence of violating spirit.

  9. Thanks Bryan for posting this article. It was very interesting.

    While you are entitled to your opinion, I have to disagree with the following:"That is written and no one or nothing can change my mind and belief in what God has told us through the Holly Bible. You are not suppost to question it you just have to follow it."

    I admit, I'm not religious, but I believe that if people didn't question the Bible, women would still be seen as the property of their husband and slavery would still exist in western democracies today. Asking questions and having free discussions are what allow a society to move forward, otherwise it stagnates and progress doesn't happen.


  10. 1 thess 5:21 test EVERYTHING, keep the good.

  11. test everything to see if it is of the spirit of christ.

    col1: 15christ is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. 17He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in EVERYTHING he might have the supremacy. 19For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

  12. lath

    you believe it is a sin, but you exclude the spirit of christ in your understanding.

  13. lath
    your understanding appears to be that the core essence of what is of god is the old covenant. not according to colossions1. the core essence of what is of god is the covenant of christ which was covered temporarily by the shroud of the old covenant until the time for it to be removed.

  14. When people quote the bible-especially the Old Testament they always bring up the Leviticus 18:22 passage that condemns homosexuality. This is the quote that has flamed all of the hatred towards gay people for generations. Here is my question...why ignore other quotes in the bible? For instance, Exodus 35:2 clearly states that people who work on the Sabbath should be put to death. Lev 11:10 states that eating shellfish is also an abomination..just like homosexuality. Then, why do evangelical Christians eat shrimp?? Lev20:14 states that people who sleep with their in-laws should be burned to death. Exodus 21:7 sanctions selling your daughter into slavery.
    COME ON PEOPLE!! All of us were given a brain. I think it is a "sin" not to use it. I also think another "sin" is to pretend you are something that you are not. For instance, knowing you are gay and marrying someone of the opposite sex just to make it "look good"..or to just "see what happens." That is so unfair-not just to you but also to the unsuspecting person that you are marrying...

  15. @ LathanJV
    I too will have to respectfully have to disagree with you on you stance, most specifically
    "in what God has told us through the Holly Bible. You are not supposed to question it you just have to follow it."
    Not just because the bible is divinely influenced, which means its written by man, and has been rewritten and translated by man many times over since its first devin telling, but also the fact that the use of logic and knowledge to question and shape (and change) ones faith is a very important part of faith it self. At Least that is something that has always been part of what I have learned threw all the years that I actively attended/was raised in the church.

  16. @Marcus
    "I admit, I'm not religious, but I believe that if people didn't question the Bible, women would still be seen as the property of their husband and slavery would still exist in western democracies today. Asking questions and having free discussions are what allow a society to move forward, otherwise it stagnates and progress doesn't happen"
    I think that you will find that there is quite a great chunk of christians who also believe like you that the bible is not a stale book, and that to just take it at face value and not question at all what it says or why it may say what it says is to in many ways devalue the complexity and true depth of the message that it shares. That while most will readily admit they are not biblical scholars, many will also say that to not seek to understand the social differences and prejustice of the times when its divinely inspired stories written down by man, as well as the stories of the new testament many written down many many years after they happened. Not only that but to understand the socialciatal differences and prejudices of the different periods when the bible underwent major translations which often involved some level of editing it as well. It is with this knowledge that one is then better able to question and interpret what part of the message is that of man (who after all has written it down in most cases many years after said events happened) and what part is the the underlying message of God. This to me at least is how my faith has always worked, and has always been encouraged to work, we where always encouraged to question the bible in Church school to question traditions to use logic and knowledge along with the scripture and tradition to help build a strong faith.

  17. Hi Brian!
    First let me start off by saying that your blog has been keeping me sane for the past six months. Thank you so much!
    Secondly, I meant to comment on your LGBT Youth post, since I am a young bisexual, but I just didn't dare. Now, though, I feel like I have to comment. You see, I'm studying in a Catholic school, since it's the the best one around where I live, and my religion teacher preaches exactly what you've written here. She says, "Oh, they can't help themselves, the poor gays. We must pray for their souls, children!"
    So, I have to stand there along with the rest of my class and pray for half of my own soul. It's one of the worst feelings in the world.
    I really wish my religion teacher could read your article, and understand it. In fact, I wish she could read your whole blog, and understand that gay people can have regular, happy, loving lives and bring up children just as well as straight couples can. In fact, if my own (straight) parents had been as nice as you and Jay, I probably would be a much better person than I am now.
    Anyway, thank you so much.
    Keep being awesome!

  18. Dear Bryan,

    I'm very glad you've posted this article. It's an amazing topic to brood on, I think.
    Guys, our Christian/Muslim/Buddhist/Pagon/... God cares for every single one of us! The very fact that you all were given life is already an evidence. So, just try to live to the utmost, sharing life - as Bryan does, for instance - with the people around you. This sharing really multiplies love, peace, joy, compassion and trust. And it's so catching. Don't deny the existence of God just because some/so many people are not (yet) able to grasp His very basic command: LOVE.

  19. Hello,
    To this topic Brian, I want to answer later more elaborate in a PM or in a message or even a letter (and maybe a book) I will send to the United States to your address. It concerns a prophet I already mentioned, and about who I have a channel also, as you probably know.
    When it comes to Jesus and our Heavenly Father, I have gone through a rough time what to think about the bible in my late teenageyears and beginning twenties, but I kept asking Jesus Himself for answers.
    And 1 thing happened more then 20 years ago : I had a near death experience, but not one like being dead and seeing a tunnel, etc.. but more a very havy hyperventilationattack (and even several), but it felt like I was dying.
    Anyhow, it got me searching and asking for answers, and I stumbled on this/these christian prophet(s) books.
    You'll hear more about them later on as I said.

    But about the ongoing discussion, 1 thing is very important : It is so that when talking about words as "homosexuality", "homosexual", "homophile", "homophilia", "'christian", "reborn", "sin", "bible" "scripture" "the Word of God", etc... there always arise discussions, because people have different VIEWS and INTERPRETATIONS of these words.
    The consequence is that people don't understand each other.
    It is for me important to define all these words and what they mean to me or to you or the persons you talk with, to begin to give an answer that can be understood.
    I won't try that here. This would give a too large reply, and I have urgent matters to attend to after this reply.

    In any case I am a gay person and I question lots of things in the bible (we have to investigate also with our heart and our mind eventual texts we read, from WHATEVER source these text may come), but I do believe in the reality of miracles, of the virgin birth, the resurrection etc...
    However I see the bible is a book written by people about God and parts, instructed to write down by God (prophets-books, and some of the gospels, esp. the Gospel of John)
    Only the 10 Commandments were written by our Heavenly Father, The Great I am. It is important to know that the bible is assembled in 352 After J.C. (NICEA). So if the Gospel of Johns speaks about "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was.....", the meaning of the word "word", was NOT "THE BIBLE", as the bible would only be assembled more then 200 years later. (About this later in my letter).

    Now when I look, to the United States (from here in Europe) the conservative denominations (some are here too of course), I always wonder why people (pentecostal, evangelic, etc...) refer to the bible as "The Word of God".
    One Thing is sure : The bible is NOT "THE" Word of God, but there are lots of words of God in it, but it's written by people.
    One of the problems that originates from saying that the bible is "THE WORD OF GOD" and stating that "everything in it is true, and nothing after it can be written that is coming from Jesus", is that these denominations are tending to a litteral interpretation of the bible, and indeed not questioning anything out of it. And they don't accept LATER revelations (like for instance a European prophet that wrote something or so). No : the bible is finished they say, and that's it. Well, that's not true : Jesus lives NOW, as we believe He is risen.
    He lives on in the Spiritual World, as the (our) Heavenly Father.
    So He can instruct new people to write things down (like the prophets I want to say NOTE : I don't speak about Joseph Schmidt (!))....

  20. ANYHOW : In most denominations there is Heaven and Hell. And you either go eternally to Heaven or eternally to Hell, and the catholic church also accepts another place from where souls can still go to Heaven in the Afterlife, after a considerable or short (depending) amount of time.

    What I find enormously important is that Jesus tells through this prophet that this is enormously sad, and that because of this teaching (of eternal punishments in Hell), lots of people already turned their back to Jesus. However Jesus comes to say through these prophets that this doctrine is not true, and some texts in the bible are not true concerning this subject (eternal punishments in Hell).
    In things in the books, I can read that Jesus once said to the Farizees "Oh You fools!" and said that if an earthly father wouldn't punish his child for his whole life with also corporal punishment everyday, -and considering an earthly father is not perfect-, how much less so would the Heavenly Father do this, being eternal and purest love and goodness ? He also gives other proof that this doctrine is ridiculous (and harmful).
    And there is even proof in the bible -even in the Old Testament- that God is not punishing anybody forever.(Lamentations 3 v 31, Psalms 100 v 5, Ps 106 v1, 107 v1, the end of Micha, etc....)
    This view CHANGES ENORMOUSLY the concept of "sin", the concept of "Hell", etc....
    Although Jesus doesn't deny the exinstence of Hell He says that "punishments" are certainly there not eternal. "Since I am Myself Life Eternal, I can never have created beings for eternal death. A so-called punishment can then merely be a means in achieving the one aim, never however a negative aim that as it were is inimicle, and therefore there also can be no question of eternal punishment."
    The consequence is that eventually EVERYBODY will (sometimes after a very long time) arrive at a certain point in time in Heaven. So everybody are brothers and sisters, gays, lesbians, straight people etc....
    So 1 thing's sure : Young gays NEVER have to commit suicide thinking they will be condemned forever (because of what is written in Leviticus f.i., and in the bible itself The Commandment "Thou shall not kill" contradicts Leviticus). And the mother of Bobby (prayers for Bobby-movie) doesn't have to be scared : her son WILL arrive in Heaven (if he isn't there already) although he committed suicide -as you know by conservative churches called a moratal sin-. And that's also the case with your transgender friend.
    Lots of what these prophets write is enormously astonoushing, and one of the MAIN THINGS it does is explain THE SPIRITUAL MEANING of lot's of the texts of the bible, AND lots lots of more.
    What the consequences are, and what is sinful and what is not (in relation to gays and lkesbians), I can't explain here in extenso. I don't have the place and time enough. 1 THING THOUGH ALREADY : We have to look to how the things are in SPIRIT and in TRUTH : And IN SPIRIT and IN TRUTH GAY PEOPLE KNOW THAT THEY ARE LOVING A SOUL IN a body of the SAME (MATERIAL) GENDER, and they know that this love is equal "LIKE A MAN LOVES HIS WIFE". IF YOU WOULD SAY YOU DON'T LOVE JAY AS A HUSBAND WOULD LOVE HIS WIFE, YOU WOULD TELL A LIE. And who is the emporor of the lie ?
    Yes, ...Satan, and not Jesus. (There are indeed things Jesus can't do : Tell lies, or not forgive people/souls).
    SO GAY RELATIONS are EVEN WANTED BY THE LORD : It are the SOULS that LOVE each other (the body's will disappear once in the Afterlife).
    The book tells a lot of SPIRITS, SOULS, and the Spiritual World we don't see.
    But, later I'll get back to you about this.

    Gaygreetzz from Steven

  21. 1 note : I wrote that the bodies will disappear in the Afterlife.
    That's not completely true : they will change
    (from material to spiritual).
    Steven (Holebis)

  22. Hi, thanks for letting me een comment this page ... I love your information and I would drink to more about it

  23. Want To Increase Your ClickBank Traffic And Commissions?

    Bannerizer makes it easy for you to promote ClickBank products using banners, simply visit Bannerizer, and grab the banner codes for your favorite ClickBank products or use the Universal ClickBank Banner Rotator to promote all of the available ClickBank products.